ROUNDTABLE DISCUSSION: Top Music Publishers Sound Off

Music publishers provide the vital link between songwriters and the recording industry, film and TV producers, and other potential users of their work. If you’re a songwriter, your publisher will often pay you a monthly draw as an advance against future royalties, assist you in developing your material, administer your copyrights and collect payments, set up co-writing appointments, finance your demos, pitch your songs to producers and artists, and promote your music in the marketplace so that you and he or she can create the maximum value for the licenses of your songs.

But what if you’re approaching your first publishing deal, or your current deal is ending? What kind of support can you expect from the publishers you’re considering? How can you reach the TV and film markets? What are the plusses and minuses of large and small publishers? How do publishers handle hip-hop and r&b acts where many producers write their own material? What should you look for in a publisher’s songpluggers?

American Songwriter contributing editor Phil Sweetland posed these and other questions to an all-star panel of music publishers of varying sizes from New York, Los Angeles, and Nashville. Here’s a little information on each of the panelists and their companies.

Irwin Robinson is chairman and chief executive of New York-based Famous Music Publishing, a company with over 100,000 copyrights in its catalog, which celebrated its 75th anniversary last year. Famous has moved aggressively into contemporary music by signing writers and writer/artists including Eminem, Irv Gotti, Tia Sillers, and Marvin Hamlisch. Mr. Robinson, who started in the music business in 1957, is one of the legendary figures in publishing.

Pat Higdon has run the Nashville office of Universal Music Publishing Group (UMPG) for about five years, and has been in publishing for 27 years. Higdon’s Nashville staff includes 41 songwriters. UMPG owns or administers more than one million copyrights, and its writers include U2, Shania Twain, Mary J. Blige, Brian McKnight, Radney Foster and Rivers Rutherford.

Scott Francis is the president of BMG Songs in Los Angeles. The company also has offices in New York, Nashville, and Miami. BMG Songs was founded in 1987, and is one of the most diverse and forward-thinking music publishers in the world. It’s the U.S. division of BMG Music Publishing Worldwide, with a catalog of music ranging from pop, rock, country, r&b, Latin, and contemporary Christian.

Frank Liddell and Travis Hill co-founded Carnival Music Publishing in Nashville about six years ago. Starting with Bruce Robison as its first writer, Carnival has successfully expanded with writers like Mark Irwin and Dan Colehour. Carnival has had monster hits including The Dixie Chicks’ “Travelin’ Soldier” and Tim McGraw’s “Angry All the Time.” Mr. Liddell is a longtime music executive who worked at Decca Records prior to Carnival.

Aida Gurwicz has been the pioneering female president of Cherry Lane Music Publishing in New York since 1990. Cherry Lane was founded in 1960 by the legendary producer, arranger, and orchestrator Milton Okun. With a staff of nearly 100, and songwriters including Ashford & Simpson, Julie Gold, and the late John Denver and Elvis Presley, Cherry Lane has long been a powerhouse in popular music. It is also one of the world’s top publishers of music for film and television, with credits like The Passion of the Christ, Shrek and Gladiator, and a huge contract for film music with DreamWorks.

Alan Brewer is president and owner of Nashville-based Brewman Music & Entertainment (BME), a rapidly growing company which also has a Los Angeles office. BME’s writers include longtime Yes keyboardist Rick Wakeman, rocker Mark Slaughter, California jazz singer/songwriter Chris Bennett, and country singer/songwriter Matt King. As a producer, Brewer has also worked with the music of superstar artists including Eric Clapton and Phil Collins.

Richard Blackstone is the head of Zomba Music Publishing in New York, a division of the global media company Bertelsmann Music Group (BMG). Zomba and its sister company Brentwood-Benson publish diverse catalogues of music performed by pop and r&b artists including Macy Gray, Justin Timberlake, Linkin Park, and R. Kelly, and Christian stars like Jars of Clay and Michael W. Smith.

Now, let’s listen to the experts.

With so few cuts out there to be had, is it tough to justify signing new songwriters because you want to protect the writers you already have under contract?

Brewer: It is hard, and that’s an issue we struggle with. That has resulted in a modification of our activities and our roster. With a quality catalog that’s grown over the last few years, in some cases from known songwriters who have had cuts, it’s difficult to justify almost starting from the beginning with a new writer, even if they’re extremely talented. But it’s a shrinking market since we have fewer labels, fewer artists and fewer singles going up and down the charts. Since there are fewer opportunities, you have to do whatever you can to increase the odds.

Higdon: I don’t think it’s any harder to justify a new writer. You just really have to justify having a long-term commitment when you get into a deal with somebody. There was a time where you could get a sense after a year. Now it sometimes takes two years for the cycle of artists and releases to be able to run the traps and find out how they’ll do. We don’t have a standard length for our writers’ contracts. What I do is try to grow with people.

Liddell: We set out to be a publishing company, and not a one-writer company. Our first writer was Bruce Robison, and I’m very proud of that. It takes longer that way, because it builds the company’s reputation. Every one of our songwriters complements the others. When we get a cut for somebody, it helps everybody. We have let very few writers go. We’re ready to go for several years. With that mentality and knowing that it’s very difficult out there, every songwriter is just a cut away from recouping (his or her advances) and making some noise. One thing I’m very happy about is that we’ve had 10 singles that have done very well, and they came from seven or eight different writers.

What should a songwriter expect from his or her publisher? How have these expectations changed?

Blackstone: First of all, it depends on whom they’re signing with. Songwriters have to do some hard diligence before they enter into this agreement. I think the perception of what a publisher does is just very different for a lot of people. Different publishers do different things. It’s fair to say that a lot of publishers are not involved in old-school publishing, in the sense of songplugging and nurturing their writers. They become more of a financial institution. If that’s the kind of deal you’re pursuing, if you’re looking for old-school publishers, you should look for the few who are left. Zomba happens to be a company that is capable now, as a worldwide company that’s part of BMG, to do an extraordinary job on worldwide administration and do the biggest deals. But we can do the old Brill Building stuff as well, like a boutique publisher. When we’re entering discussions with a writer or producer, we sit for a long time and talk about expectations. If we can’t meet their expectations, we don’t want the deal and I advise that they sign with one of our competitors.

Robinson: Well, that depends on the kind of writer. Famous has a small roster compared to the majors. We are intentionally keeping it small. We’re a major because we’re a part of a multi-faceted corporation (Viacom). The only piece missing is a record company. Viacom owns outlets like CBS Television, Paramount Pictures, MTV and Country Music Television. There’s a long list of affiliated companies where we have an entrée to the use of music. One of the benefits of keeping our company small is that we don’t want to be overhead-driven. We’re interested more in quality than market share. That’s why we go out and pay what we did for Eminem or Irv Gotti. The advantage to writers is that it’s an uncrowded arena, compared to a lot of places.

How much do you work with alternative income streams, such as film and TV music, advertising, and ring tones?

Gurwicz: When I joined this company in 1990, the mainstay was the catalog of John Denver, and we had a reputation for being a real good little publisher. It’s hard to believe now, but in those days the music business was in its heyday and the majors were all out there with big, blank checks. You would sign 10 acts to publishing deals and hope one would break out. It was all about playing the odds, and for publishers with 1 million or 1.5 million copyrights you can do that. We couldn’t afford to do that. I was traveling to LA a lot, and what became incredibly clear was that a very important part of the business-film and TV music-was being ignored. Every movie studio had a publishing entity. Sometimes they used that publisher and sometimes not. Certainly indie producers did not have their own music publishing company. We found this enormous, untapped market. In the early 1990s, we started with small administration deals. We were learning a new business. Administering film and TV, with cue sheets and crazy rules worldwide, is an entirely different business than administering songs. We spent about three years honing our skills and developing a back-office that was creating an amazing buzz. In 1997 when DreamWorks was formed, they were offered all kinds of crazy deals and advances and they picked us. That contract was just renewed in 2003. Songwriters who want to write for TV and film don’t need to live in New York or LA now. In today’s age, music for commercials is all sent electronically to secure sites.

Robinson: Ring tones are definitely a growth area for music publishers and songwriters. First of all, it’s an area that’s never existed before. As these get into more significant areas, such as master tones and ring tones that phone companies are offering as premiums to get people to use their phones, this is just beginning.

Brewer: Probably between 30 and 50 percent of our company’s work, especially with Mason Cooper in the LA office, is for film and TV projects. Of course, we have the full standard publishing operation here in Nashville with myself, our staff, and writers continuing to forge ahead. But we have really found a greater than expected reaction in film and TV, and a fabulous response from music supervisors. When you have a writer who is exceptionally talented and writer/artists who are well-known, that helps peak the interest of people making decisions. But we have also come up with a unique approach in blending the businesses, taking the approach of a traditional publishing company and what would more likely be described as being an independent rep for the producer, writer, and artist. We combine those services in a holistic approach for film and TV placement. Officially, we say that BME stands for Brewman Music and Entertainment, but for fulfilling needs we say it stands for “Brewman Makes it Easy”!

Francis: The use of music in film and television has been an incredible way to introduce new music to record buyers. And because BMG Songs is based in LA, our film and television department has developed special personal relationships with music supervisors and film and TV companies. The potential for an artist can be astounding when a song is synched in a film or television program. We pitched Maroon 5’s songs non-stop when the album first came out, and created a buzz for the band with uses in television programs ER, Smallville, 24, Birds of Prey, Third Watch, and Miss Match. These uses brought Maroon 5 into the public (consciousness), and the band’s album Songs About Jane took off…every very area that delivers music to the public and creates awareness about the artist and song is helpful to a songwriter. And new media-especially ring tones-has been a boon to marketing music and generating revenue. Video games have been especially helpful in breaking a song recorded by a new game. And, of course, television commercials deliver the best bang for a new artist, provided the use is right. Again, Maroon 5’s “This Love” was in a Mavi Jeans commercial when the album was first released.

Is a smaller, independent publisher able to give more attention to a songwriter than a major publisher?

Higdon: Obviously, I’ve enjoyed the opportunity in my career to work at both. I find there are aspects of both that are very advantageous, and aspects that are disadvantageous. We try to run our business as if big or small doesn’t make any difference. The key thing is that every writer wants to feel like they have personal attention. You have to be serving those writers, bringing them opportunities to exploit their works, not only to collect and license their work, but to exploit their works. From a big company perspective, because of consolidation and mergers it’s easy to have more catalog and writers, and more projects you’re responsible for than you can realistically be a steward of. At a smaller company, you’re more in control of your own destiny. The disadvantage of a smaller company is that sometimes you’d like to reach out, but you don’t have the resources to do it. I think one advantage at a bigger publisher is that we have more catalog and more opportunities to reach out and diversify ourselves.

Liddell: When we started this company six years ago, Travis Hill (Frank’s partner) and I said, “Man, we’ve got a lot energy. We’re not writing a business plan that says the market is calling. Here’s how this business works: I’m betting on Travis and I’m betting on me. We’re not gonna lose for any other reason.” So we’ve continued to fill our staff. I’m 40 years old, and I’m the oldest guy here. In terms of support, the most important thing a songwriter can get from a publisher is someone who believes in you-someone who will commit the time and do the work. It takes a few years for people to decide who’s a good writer. You both have to be committed. I’ll tell you, our writers know we’re on their side. Sometimes we fight and argue but they know that if we’re not on their side, nobody is.

Francis: I’ve never really understood why people are so fascinated with the number of songwriters a company has. There’s only one thing that’s important to me-whether from a creative standpoint we properly service the number of songwriters on our roster. So, the answer (Editors’ note: The question Francis was asked dealt with the number of songwriters BMG had under contract) is we have the exact number of songwriters that we believe we can give the best service to. At BMG Songs, we concentrate on the quality rather than the quantity of songwriters, and then make sure we take excellent care of them. Because we have a talent pool filled with quality and a large catalog, it is only natural that A&R people, music supervisors, and new media companies come to us for our songs. This results in our knowing more about more projects, and that can only help our songwriters.

Why have you been able so be so successful with r&b and pop artists and writers?

Blackstone: Specifically, I’ll speak about Justin Timberlake, R. Kelly, and Linkin Park. If we use those three artists as an example, it’s very simple. (The key to our success) is identifying and aligning ourselves with talent. You’re talking about Robert Kelly (R. Kelly’s full name) and Justin Timberlake, two of the most truly gifted individuals, artists and songwriter. I’m just in awe of them and feel truly honored to be in a position to work with them. With Robert and Justin, we don’t add much to their creativity. I can’t say that I or anybody on our staff should say, “Hey Robert, you should change the chorus.” If you look at our writer and artist roster, we’re so lean and that’s one of our strong suits. With Linkin Park, that was a developmental deal. One of their members was an intern for us. Over a three-year process, we developed that band. We helped them with changes in their lead vocalist, helped nurture them to find their sound, and the rest is history. Now that everything’s in place, we don’t say, “Change the lyric.” Once we’ve done our thing, all we’ve had to do is maintain and be great administrators and great teammates.

There is a growing structure of the producer acting as songwriter in the hip-hop and r&b markets. How do you as a publisher deal with that?

Robinson: The way we get around that problem is that we sign the producers. You’re right, they control a lot of what goes on in the studio and the production of that music. They get involved in the writing of it. With respect to that area of the business, we don’t sign pure hip-hop writers. We sign either artist/writers or writer/producers. The challenges there are multi-fold. In writing material for that genre, it’s very rarely done by less than three or four people. The problem is that these things are never worked out in the studio, or where they’re tracking. Then what happens is they start the negotiations over, like, “Did you get 7 or 8 percent of the song?” The challenge is the length of time it takes to negotiate who gets what. During that period, the record company won’t license it and therefore the payments aren’t made. Sometimes we have waited close to a year, when a record sold 1 or 2 million copies.

Francis: We are really proud of the urban songwriters we’ve signed in the last two years-producer Chad Hugo of the Neptunes, Chingy, Lil’ Flip, and our newest is Xzibit. And of course, we’ve had Nelly from the start. Songwriting in the urban world is the ultimate example of the collaborative process. You’ve got an entire team of people “writing” a song: the artist, the producer(s), programmer(s), engineer-and then in many cases you have a “sampled” song added into the mix. The process in which a song is recorded in the urban world has changed the way a song is written. You don’t pitch finished songs in the hip-hop world. You market your producers and songwriters to work on projects (“pitch the people”), and you pitch tracks and samples. And setting splits is difficult and time-consuming because of the number of people involved. If a “good split” to you means a high percentage of a song for your writer, then one’s ability to get a “good split” is difficult these days due to the high number of writers. If a “good split” means a fair split for your writer, problems often arise because often there are people claiming pieces of songs when they really had nothing to do with the actual creation of the song.

What makes a great songplugger?

Higdon: I have five pluggers now. Generally my operation is set up to have six. Obviously, there are a lot of pluggers out there, and the people that are the best are the ones that ultimately can excel in a few areas. First of all, you have to identify great songs and great writers. There are lots of delivery men who can take things from point A to point B. A great plugger, as my generation learned, also has to have a terrific sense of song casting. You have to identify the right fit for somebody. One other thing that I think is hard to find but is very, very vital, is that you have to have an innate sense of confidence and a different kind of creativity. It’s more like you’re an A&R person, more like a producer, where you can think of what you can do to build an artist’s career. Those are probably the three things I think are the most vital. Beyond that, you just have to have a great work ethic. Song plugging’s a 24/7 job. You never know when you’re gonna bump into the right guy. You have to find ways to get to people that everybody else doesn’t do.

Are there any unique examples of networking that you’ve accomplished as a publisher?

Gurwicz: Part of life is luck. The very first time we stepped out into the chart business in 30 years, our first signing was Black Eyed Peas. Our whole thing is that the overall financial success of an artist is enhanced by our being there. We have a very proactive creative department. We have a strategic marketing division, and people who are dedicated to only pitching music to commercials. We’re very active in song placement and in setting up co-writers. Here’s a wonderful example. When I found Black Eyed Peas, the first time I met Will.I.Am was at an MTV shoot. He said, “Do you guys represent the NFL?” I told him we do. Will, who’s a football fan, is a great fan of that music. He said, “That would be a dream come true if I could write with those guys!” About a month later, we were working with the league because the NFL Network was launching. They wanted to do a cool opening for the network. So I hooked Will up with one of the NFL’s writers, and they co-wrote the opening theme. It was fabulous. We’re very good at that kind of matchmaking. That sort of cross-pollinating is very effective and it really came out of necessity, because we couldn’t compete with the checkbook of the majors.

How has the relationship between songwriters and publishers changed over the years?

Higdon: There are a lot of subtle changes. Musical changes and artist trends have evolved and changed, and things come back in style. There are also a lot of changes in the way that we have to do business, because of the climates of radio and record releases. Those things have always affected us. To me, obviously the main thing is that it seems publishers were more independent in a way many years ago. Even though they relied on recordings by mainstream artists, they were a little bit more open to looking for small sources of income. They looked at opportunities for songs that were not big pieces of the business but they all mounted up. There have been times when we’ve been guilty of just chasing what’s hot. But now, we can be aggressive in the sync arena-in the areas of motion pictures, print, and downloads. There are lots of opportunities for our writers now. We can utilize our writers as more or less the proprietors of their copyrights, then create our own audience with new media and the Internet.

Robinson: That’s easy. When I first began, we had direct relationships with writers over long periods of time. Very few of them were artists. That was a majority of the business in 1957. But happening at that time and proliferating much more thereafter was the advent of the writer/artist and the relationship there changed from two points of view. It changed from the point of view of the writer/artist, who was writing songs for his or her own interpretation and some of them didn’t want their songs recorded by other people. The other aspect was economic. The leverage between writer and publisher shifted to the point where the writer/artist who was going to be the first exponent of the song was asking for a larger share. Those two things happened at the same time. But when you’re in any business, you have to adapt to changing times.